ryochiji ([info]ryochiji) wrote,
@ 2008-10-05 21:32:00
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in which Ryo goes Ted Kaczynski (without the bombing part)
Last week, I spent several days up in Redding looking at property. It's always been a goal of mine to own land in the middle of nowhere, but the reasons have changed over time. Even last week, I was mostly looking for land for recreational uses: camping, hunting, shooting. Obviously, bigger would be better, but I settled on 40 acres because rural land tends to be parceled in 40 acre lots (or multiples thereof), and also because 40 acres, given the right geometry and terrain, would allow me to build my own 600 yard shooting range (the type of matches I compete in shoot at up to 600 yards). Also, I could afford to buy 40 cheap acres without wiping out my savings, and I don't believe in that whole mortgage thing (never did, even before this crisis).

While out there looking at lots for sale, I met and talked to a couple of people who do live on 40 acre lots in the middle of nowhere. Where, "middle of nowhere" is about a 30 minute drive from Redding on paved roads, and another 15-20 on dirt roads, with no power, water, or sewage, and for most intents and purposes, they're cut off from civilization as we know it. One guy said fire fighters didn't even have a map of the area, much less know whether/where people lived. Another woman said she had to chase off illegal hunters by blasting her shotgun into the woods, and that the hunters, disappointed about leaving empty handed, shot her neighbor's cow on the way out. The Sheriff, of course, was nowhere near.

Talking to these people made me think about life out there, on a 40 acre lot of land. As it turns out, with the combination of modern technology and ancient wisdom, one could live quite comfortably out there. You can get electricity from solar panels with a diesel generator as backup. Water? Pump it from a well, spring, or even collect precipitation (Redding gets 33" per year -- about 20 gallons per square feet). Septic tanks take care of sewage, and of course there's always composting for organic waste. You can even get internet via satellite (although latency might be high). For food, you can grow vegetables and raise livestock. The area I was in was pretty dry and the soil didn't seem particularly rich, so yield might not be terribly high, but it'd at least augment the diet (the woman I talked to had a garden with tomatoes, squash, carrots, corn, and had a cow, with a calf on the way). To me, it sounds like a comfortable, albeit basic life.

But here's the kicker. I then started doing the math. A piece of property I was interested in was going for $36.5k, which might go a little lower but include various fees, and we'll call it $40k. Another $30k would probably pay for a well, basic solar-based power, and material for an illegal (but livable) cabin. Technically, septic is required by law, but who cares when you have a 40 acre toilet (as long as you keep your shit out of the food). I could get all that with my savings, and I'd have a place to live for less than $50/month (property tax and road fees). Then factor in health insurance, food, fuel, maybe a car payment, etc and I'd probably live quite comfortably for $1200/month. If I did free-lance work and charged $30/hour (post-tax), that's only 40 hours of work per month. Ok, so I still want to put some money in the bank, so I'll work 80 hours, or maybe charge more. I can spend the rest of the time shooting, tending my garden, or just plain enjoying the peace and quiet.

Of course, then I started wondering what I was doing living out here in the suburbs, working at least 40 hours a week, every week. In fact, why does anybody live in the suburbs, or in cities? Infrastructure? Well, the grid is horribly inefficient, and who needs it when plenty of solar power falls on your land, and you can pump water from the ground. Security? Denser populations lead to crime, and are ripe targets for terrorism. Health? Again, population density increases risk of communicable diseases, not to mention the lack of exercise and diet of processed foods that are slowly killing us. And if that doesn't do it, we face death every day on the roads. So, what does that leave us with? Friendly neighbors? I know more about two random people I met in the middle of nowhere than I do about my next door neighbor who, at this very moment, is less than 20ft away from me. Humans simply aren't designed to interact with masses of people, and genuine communities have been replaced by public services (out there, you need to know your neighbors because they're the nearest support you've got).

If cities are less sustainable, more dangerous, less healthy, and socially alienating, do they even make sense? I can think of two reasons why cities make sense: tradition, and economics. As a society, we've become city dwellers, to a large extent. We don't know anything else, and many of you seem to like it, for whatever reason. But what's really keeping (sub)urban life going is probably our economy. The economy is driven by credit and consumption. Even the poorest contribute to the economy by taking out auto-loans or credit cards, or receive food stamps to buy Coke and Cheetohs for dinner. Our economy would come crumbling if people bought cheap land in cash instead of taking out mortgages on overpriced houses, or stopped feeding on Dollar Menus because they were growing their own food.

In other words, people living healthy sustainable lives is actually at odds with our capitalist society. You hear about "greentech" and "sustainability" every day, but fundamentally, what's unsustainable and ungreen isn't our manufacturing processes or SUVs: it's our economy. An economy that requires growth, and growth at increasing rates, while depending on finite resources is inherently unsustainable. But, of course, we can't admit that, and we have to keep feeding the beast. That's why we have ludicrous products like hybrids cars, which are actually more damaging to the environment than all-gas cars when you factor in the impact of manufacturing and disposal. That's why they won't tell you that keeping your SUV and commuting by public transit is better than buying a new car. That's why they won't tell you to eat less meat and processed foods, or to buy and use fewer electronic devises. Consume, consume, consume.

So, in short, y'all keep doing what you're doing, but some time in the not too distant future, I'ma go live on a farm.



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[info]thornmallow
2008-10-06 06:34 am UTC (link)
Sir, I do take umbrage at thine portrayal of the woes of city dwelling. The leap you have made from "I don't know my neighbor from Sam" to "Cities are socially alienating" is simply astounding.

So, I make two main points.
1. You met those random people and talked to them because they had knowledge you wanted, which they supplied.
2. How much have you talked to your neighbor, ever? Does he have anything you need? He is a close stranger. Does that mean if you found out he was actually working on improving solar panel efficiency, you would still never talk to him?
3. Isolated communities are microcosms with the essential varieties of all human interactions. Meaning even out there in your presumably socially appealing setup, there would still be people you didn't get along with, only now they'd be about 10% of your local population. And you would be in much less touch with the people you currently consider friends, since most of them would have trouble visiting and you'd have spotty phone/internet service.

Consider finding someone compatable who is building their own sustained living system and be their house mate. Living alone tends to suck. Especially if you get sick and there's nobody to bring you tea and tell you funny stories.

Just some thoughts.

p.s. If you ever need to move out there just to lay low, I've got the perfect body double for you here in Philly. I swear, I will find a pic of him somewhere and you will believe me. :)

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[info]ryochiji
2008-10-06 08:04 am UTC (link)
I won't try to claim that this was meant to be a solid argumentative piece (it is, after all, an LJ post), so yeah, it might have leaps. *leaps* Oh noez!

Anyway, just to elaborate, I think cities are alienating for 2 reasons: they tend to lack a sense of community, and our brains simply aren't designed to recognize or remember very many people so you can only possibly know a tiny fraction of the people around you.

Re: 2. I think your relationship with neighbors is fundamentally different. In rural areas, you need to know who your neighbors are because they're pretty much all you have for support and locally relevant knowledge. Here, you'd just dial 911, or call the plumber, or run to the store, look on yelp, call a friend or whatever.
Re: 3.
1) Yes, there would be people you don't like, but you wouldn't have to see them very often and they'd be at least several hundred yards away (probably more like on the other side of that hill, out of sight).
2) And what makes you think I see my "friends" very often here? The last time I saw a "friend" other than my (now ex) girlfriend was 3 weeks ago (and even then only because I went to my then-girlfriend's apartment and some of my friends happen to live there).

Either way, I won't try to argue that city life is definitively and universally alienating. If you don't think it's alienating, more power to you. I think it is (based on the reasons mentioned above) but that's just me.

Re p.s: I get that more often than you'd think, but usually just turns out to be some Asian dude with a pony tail, about the same height and build as me. Funny thing is, half of you white people look the same to me too, but I don't run around going "hey I saw someone who looks just like you" all the time. Just sayin'.

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[info]thornmallow
2008-10-07 04:55 am UTC (link)
/sigh
Yeah I know I sound like the stereotypical "No really, I swear, he was *totally Asian* just like *you*" white shlub, but in my defense:

I am terrible with faces, which I admit. I am instead good with shapes and outlines. I am fairly proud of my ability to reliably replicate things. So when I say he looks like you, I mean it as in same eyebrow to nose ratio, same cheek curve, same "meh, so tell me something I don't know" expression most of the time. I've almost taken a picture of him a couple times, for proof, but I couldn't think of a way to do that without coming off as exceptionally weird.


I used to hunt online for young-old face morphs because I could never figure out how to predict the way someone's face looked/will look. It didn't help though. I can only barely pick *myself* out of a kindergarten photo. I constantly embarass myself at parties too, when people say, "Um, we've met. Remember? Last year?"
No, no I do not. Last year was awhile ago, and you cut your hair and lost weight, damn you. Couldn't you just put yourself in homeostasis for me? Is it too much to ask?

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in no particular order
[info]anotherthink
2008-10-06 02:49 pm UTC (link)
1) $30/hr is a ridiculously low estimate for someone with your skills, even after tax.
2) I think living in the suburbs working 40+ hours/week is getting less popular? But that's just based on the circles I run in, by which I mean I spend most of my time at home reading blogs by people who are self-employed :). But most of these people have middle ground like living in small towns or cities and working ~30 hours/week and growing a few vegetables on the side. (The key fact is that someone like you is already living on a lot less than you make in 40 hours of work, since workers are sufficiently efficient now that it takes half as long to produce the value that sustains the average level of consumption of someone from the 1940s -- hopefully soon companies will come to realize that shorter workweeks + correspondingly smaller paychecks are practical for work-life balance, encourage frugality and not consuming a ton of unnecessary stuff, enable two parents to both do market work and devote time to their families, etc., but meanwhile self-employment is the best way for most people to get this kind of flexibility.)
3) Your setup sounds like a good plan for some individuals who have the temperament to really not see other people that often, plus the skills to do the kind of market work that can be done from a small farmstead, plus a certain threshold of physical stamina for farm work -- and that probably only describes a very small segment of the population.
4) Plus your setup requires that you have satellite, solar panels, a pre-existing education, health insurance/care if needed, a bank, parts of your diet that you can't practically grow yourself (even small-scale farming is more labor-intensive than you probably think) -- all of which have to be provided by people who can't really have the lifestyle you're describing.
5) So why do people live in cities? Because most people's threshold for minimum level of social interaction needed for mental health is higher than yours. Because people do specialize, and sometimes specialization produces Dollar Menus but also sometimes it produces solar panels. Because once you accept that humans are social creatures and most of them want to live within accessible distance of many other humans, living in a population-dense area is a considerably more sustainable solution than living sufficient distance from other members of your community that you need non-human-powered transport to get there. Because cities can have economies of scale for healthcare, education, distribution, etc.
6) Solar panels used to be counterproductive because they took more energy to produce than they could output in their lifetime, but those solar panels were essentially just prototypes while the manufacturing process got more efficient, etc. and now we have solar panels that are sufficiently efficient that they make sense from a sustainability standpoint. I would figure that hybrid cars are on the same path -- so the purchase of a hybrid car, while it may in some sense be a larger energy consumption than keeping your gas car, is funding R&D for more efficient hybrid/other cars/vehicles in the future, so it could be considered a long-term investment.
7) Also to consider that currently you live in the suburbs, and suburbs have pretty much always been a dumb idea brought about by the economic conditions of a particular time (and those are currently in the process of changing to make suburbs totally pointless again, but enough people already live in them/moving is expensive so it is a bad situation all around) -- might you feel differently about living in an actual city, especially a city/neighborhood where most people don't go places they can't walk or bike to?

sorry that that was incredibly long and rambling!

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[info]axeloxenstierna
2008-10-06 08:59 pm UTC (link)
I've heard terrible things about satellite internet. One guy told me that there's so much lag that IRC doesn't work, yet alone many online games and high-end websites. Also you can't access the internet in a storm etc.

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[info]annabananaface
2008-10-08 02:43 am UTC (link)
I have to say that I think you are unfairly maligning urban/suburban living. While I don't have a whole lot of use for stereotypical suburbia, I've rather liked living in cities. I definitely knew my neighbors in my San Diego apartment complex. They were a good group of people who were almost always willing to help each other in a pinch and fun to hang out with, and because we lived very near each other getting help didn't require going so far. We also had the urban advantages of a walking distance grocery store, bar, coffee shop, whatever.

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[info]saveannica
2008-10-12 07:48 pm UTC (link)
I'm coming with you.

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[info]ryochiji
2008-10-14 04:23 am UTC (link)
yay!

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Solar panels
(Anonymous)
2009-02-03 07:12 pm UTC (link)
I live very far out in the country, a couple of months ago I built my own solar panel for about 300.00 dollars, this is a great idea for anyone thinking about living off the grid.

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(Anonymous)
2009-03-25 04:19 pm UTC (link)
I Agrre with you...Thanks for this useful article
Hybridcars (http://hybridcars-1st.com/blog)

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Great post!
(Anonymous)
2009-04-21 08:27 pm UTC (link)
Great post! Im having a blog about solar power. You can visit it here (http://howtomakesolarpanel.brighterplanet.org/) if you got the time!

Have great day!

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